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Emptiness and Dependent Arising
January 29, 2005, Sravasti Abbey
Ven. Chodron's interview with Zopa Rinpoche
Lama Zopa Rinpoche: We
ordinary beings who havent realized emptiness dont see
things as similar to illusions. We dont realize that things
are merely labeled by mind and exist by mere name. Generally speaking,
we dont see the mere appearance of the Iuntil we become enlightened, because
whenever our mind merely imputes something, the next second the
negative imprint left on the mental continuum by previous ignorance
projects true existence. In the first moment, the I is imputed;
in the next it appears back to us as real, as truly existent, as
not merely labeled by mind.
Until we achieve enlightenment we have this
appearance of true existence. Except for the meditative equipoise
on emptiness of an arya, all other consciousnesses of sentient beings
have the appearance of true existence. During an aryas meditative
equipoise on emptiness things dont appear truly existent.
It is without the dualistic view (in two senses, first) not only
is there no appearance of true existence, but there is no appearance
of subject and object. This wisdom mind and its object are inseparable,
like water put in water. The aryas meditative equipoise on
emptiness hasnt completely eliminated the dualistic view from
the persons mindstream forever, but it has absorbed it temporarily.
That is how the wisdom meditates on emptiness. It realizes emptiness
directly, becoming inseparable from emptiness.
After arising from meditative equipoise on emptiness,
everything appears truly existent again, even though the meditator
no longer believes that this appearance is true. In this way, the
meditator sees things as like an illusion in that they appear one
way (truly existent) but exist in another (dependent, merely labeled).
These post-meditation times are called subsequent attainment, or
rjes-thob in Tibetan. So the appearance of true existence is there
until we attain enlightenment. Thats why it is said that every
consciousness of sentient beings except an aryas meditative
equipoise on emptiness is a hallucinating mindeverything that
appears to it appears truly existent.
So whatever appears and whenever
there is the thought I, aryas have the appearance of
a truly existent I during the time of subsequent attainment. If
this is the case for aryas, there is no question that ordinary bodhisattvas
on the path of accumulation and the path of preparation, who have
not realized emptiness directly,
have a hallucinating mind. Everything that appears to them appears
truly existent. Needless to say, whenever we common people, who
havent realized emptiness, think I, we dont
think of a merely labeled I. Generally speaking, when we common
people talk about I, its the real I, the I existing from its
own side. During our conversations every day, we dont talk
about some other I; were always thinking and speaking about
a truly existent I. That is how we see and think of things. Ordinarily
people do not question that appearance. Nor are they aware that
they assent to that appearance, grasping it as real and true.
So when we think I or point to I,
naturally we think its truly existent. We dont have
any appearance other than that of true existence. Then we believe
that appearance to be the way things actually exist. So when we
say I, were automatically pointing to and thinking
about a truly existent I because the merely labeled I is not appearing
any more. But the I that appears to us is false; it doesnt
truly exist. When we meditate on emptiness, we drop an atom bomb
on this truly existent I. The atom bomb is the reason of dependent
arisingthe I is not truly existent because it is a dependent
arising. Its not true. What appears true, what appears to
exist from its own side, isnt true. Thus it is empty of true
existence.
But its being empty doesnt mean the I
doesnt exist. The real I, the truly existent I, the I that
exists by its own nature, the I that exists from its own side, is
not true. It doesnt exist. However, the conventional I, the
I that exists by being merely labeled, the I that is a dependent
arising, that I exists.
In the Heart Sutra, Avalokiteshvara says no
form, no feeling, and so on. This is like throwing an atom bomb
on the appearance of truly existent things. That appearance is not
true. Those truly existent things that appear to us do not exist.
Then what comes in our heart is that theyre empty. Its
not that they dont exist. They exist, but theyre empty.
Why? Because theyre dependent arisings. Because they are dependent
arisings, they are empty of true existence; because they are dependent
arisings, they exist (conventionally). Use the reason Its
not true because its a dependent arising. Do analytical
meditation to search for the I, then do stabilizing meditation when
you see its emptiness.
For us ordinary beings, whatever we contact,
talk about, or think abouteverythingappears truly existent
and we believe in that appearance. We grasp things as truly existent.
However, when you realize the emptiness of the I or any other phenomenon
and train your mind in that realization, you see that this phenomenon
is merely labeled by mind. Even though true existence still appears
to you, you dont assent to that appearance; you dont
believe that phenomena truly exist. You know they exist by being
merely labeled by mind, even though they appear truly existent.
You have discovered that theyre not true, that they exist
in mere name.
Someone whose mind has realized emptiness in
the meditation session sees things as like an illusion in the subsequent
attainment time. He knows they exist by being merely labeled by
mind. So even though that meditator has the realization that everything
is a dependent arising and is merely labeled by mind dependent on
the base, he still has the appearance of true existence. But now
he points at that and say to himself, This appearance isnt
true because its a dependent arising. There is nothing
contradictory in thisthings are both empty and arise dependently.
Because this meditator has realized the emptiness
of I, he has also realized that the I exists by mere name and is
merely imputed by mind in dependence on the aggregatesthis
is the Prasangika view. The I is there. It exists, but you dont
grasp it as truly existent, even though it still appears to be.
For example, lets say you see a mirage and have the vision
that water is there. But since you just came from that place, you
know that only sand is there, so you dont believe that its
water. You think, That water is not true. It doesnt
exist as it appears because theres no water there. Theres
the appearance of waterthat appearance of water exists. But
there is no water. Many things are like that. Once when I
was in Italy I saw a lady in a store but she turned out to be a
mannequin. Then there was another figure that I thought was a mannequin
but it was a lady. So this is similar: the appearance is false,
it appears one way but exists in another.
TC: In the texts, it
says that we dont realize that things are merely labeled by
mind until after we realize emptiness. So how can we use the reason
that things are merely labeled by mind as a proof that things are
empty if we cant realize that theyre merely labeled
by mind until after weve realized emptiness?
LZR: Its like
this. Theres no contradiction. Being merely labeled by mind
indicates how things come into existence. At this moment, this is
not something you know through analytical meditation, not something
you know by realizing emptiness.
Usually in the philosophical teachings, it says
that whatever appears appears truly existent. Thats what normally
happens due to the hallucinating mind. The only time true existence
doesnt appear to sentient beings is during the meditative
equipoise on emptiness of an arya.
But in Pabongkas text it says there is
mere appearance of the object for a brief moment. Through analysis
you can get the idea. For example, when you see a drum, analyze
it at the same time. Be aware that your mind is labeling drum
by seeing that base. Be aware at the same time as youre labeling.
Analyze: to be able to label drum you have to see a specific phenomenon.
Even though the table is round like a drum, you wont label
drum on the base you label table. It has
to be a specific base that performs the function of making sound
and that has material to produce sound when hit. You have to see
that base first. Then because of the function it performswhat
its used forthe mind merely labels drum. Seeing that
baseits shape, color, etc.and knowing it has that function
become the reason to label drum.
When you are aware and analyze at the same time
as the labeling process is occurringthat is, youre analyzing
while youre labeling drumth
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